Dollhouse Wiki talk:Manual of Style
Welcome to the creation of our Manual of Style! Please feel free to voice your opinion about the issues listed below, or to add your own issue. Remember to sign your contribution! --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) How do I help create the Manual of Style? Please share your opinions below. When it seems like we've reached a consensus on a particular issue, I will ask if we're in agreement. I'll wait a few days to post if they agree or disagree. If nobody disagrees, I will update the main article the official ruling. If you are the lone voice in a crowd of people who want it a different way, I will feel your pain, but I will follow the crowd. I will then mark the heading for that issue "CLOSED" on the talk page. Do not edit a section marked "CLOSED!" The beauty of a wiki is that it is always evolving. If you think we should change a policy that's already made it to the main page, please comment under the heading Policy changes. Then we repeat what we did before: we discuss, we reach a consensus, I update the main page. I will also move the discussion to the appropriate section so we keep Policy changes clear for current discussion only. I am not an admin; I am only your high school English teacher come back to haunt you (or maybe I am your high school English teacher now!). The main page will not be locked, but I am respectfully requesting that you make minor edits only to the main page. I make mistakes, too; please go ahead and fix them when you find them! However, please leave the policy updates to me. To sum up: 1. Share your ideas on any issue marked "OPEN." 2. Add new issues. Mark them "OPEN." 3. Do not edit issues marked "CLOSED." 4. If you think we should change a closed issue, edit the Policy changes section. 5. Only make minor edits to the main article. Thanks in advance for all your input! --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Policy changes Verb tense: OPEN What tense(s) should we use in our articles? --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *The 24 wiki uses a policy that all in-universe articles should be written in the past tense, and all out-of-universe articles written in present. Maybe we could adopt something like that, as well? --Cubs Fan2007 (Talk) 23:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC) **I'm going to jump in as a literary snob and disagree about in-universe articles. Literary critics write about texts in the present tense, and I think that television shows are a type of text. An article like imprint would be kind of silly in the past tense. Out-of-universe articles, though, I'll agree with you on. So I'd say present tense all around (other than real life, like "America won the Revolutionary War"). --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :::I agree with present tense all around. (We should keep an eye open for future tense-bits that were written before the show started airing.) --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Speculation: OPEN Should we allow speculation in articles? --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *Given that the show is so young, I'd be in favor of allowing speculation, as long as it's stated as speculation and not fact. But I think it's worth opening up the topic if anybody disagrees. --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::That's a tricky topic. Every summary is basically highlighting (and possibly speculating on) the importance of some depicted events (while ignoring others). For instance, an article like Adelle DeWitt is inherently biased by the highlighting of certain aspects of her character, and also by retelling certain plot-events in a manner that was actually never said on screen. That being said, I would allow speculation in articles, if there's a clear section designated to it. It would maybe be best not to let it bleed into the general descriptions and synopses and such. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :::I think a speculation section would be great - it would especially help clean up Alpha.--Phantomrhiannon 20:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::The Heroes Wiki uses a system for speculation I think would work - a heading that links to a seperate discussion-style tab called Fan Theories where people can speculate at will. It's seperate from the main article, so it won't be read as factual, but still easily found. Ponk 03:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC) :::Lostpedia does something similar which works fairly well. People seem to get delete-happy on the theories tabs, which causes a lot of dissent, but I think it's better to keep vandalism and anger away from the main articles if possible (plus for theories tab). On the other hand, do we have an admin willing to go through and add a theories tab to all the appropriate articles (plus for speculation section in main article)? --Phantomrhiannon 16:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC) So, speculation: speculation section in the main article, or as a theory tab? (I'm neutral myself) --Phantomrhiannon 23:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC) Personal pronouns: OPEN When, if ever, should we allow first person pronouns? --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *I'm really, really, really violently and vehemently opposed to the use of I/me/myself in wiki articles. Wikis are built by a community, and individual editors have no ownership over any wiki articles. I can buy using first person plurals, as in "In 'Gray Hour,' we learn that Alpha is alive." However, I think it's better to go all or nothing on first person pronouns, and like I said, I'm very anti-I, so my vote is no first person pronouns. --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Totally agreed. No I/we in articles, since even every "we learn" can be rephrased to something neutral like "it is revealed". The Is and Wes should be, however, encouraged in Discussion pages, I guess. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Opinions/analysis: OPEN *To tie in with personal pronouns and speculation, I'd like to say no to opinions and yes to analysis. "I think Alpha is an evil man because he is a murderer" = no. "Alpha's murderous background makes him a sinister presence in Echo's life" = yes. --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Yep, that's what I was saying above about speculation: Summing up certain plot points will always have a touch of analysis, and that's okay. Starting to judge certain plot points by personal ethical or moral values is opinion, and should be limited to Discussion pages, if it needs to be discussed at all. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Quotes: OPEN How/when is quoting the show appropriate?--Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *Generally, I think the way that the articles we've got do a good job using characters' quotes to describe each other or pieces of the Dollhouse world. However, random quotes are starting to appear as large chunks of text (see: Alpha). I'm always hesitant to delete somebody's contribution, but I think we may want to define how to go about adding quotes just for the sake of having quotes. I'd advocate for allowing an "Important Quotes" section to character/episode articles. --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Introducing an "Important Quotes" section in articles like Alpha would be great, kind of like an addendum. Since most of the stuff that is quoted there was already summarized in the article, nothing gets lost. Episodes could have an own "Quotes" section too (like "Ghost"), and I think a nice, catchy quote is sometimes a good way to kick off an in-universe-article (like the quote on top of the Alpha-article). --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::: I like the idea of keeping a short quote that summarises or at least describes the character well as the first thing in a character article, like in Alpha's page. What do you guys think? Ponk 03:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC) ::::I'm a fan. --Phantomrhiannon 16:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC) Standard article formats: OPEN General: OPEN Characters: OPEN Character format: OPEN I think each character page should have a general introduction that doesn't go much beyond the first character descriptions that were released by the producers. Kind of like a "non-spoiler zone" for the uninitiated. A "Character development"-section detailing the known/depicted events that have happened to/with the character would probably be a good idea. Within that, I'm always a fan of a "Relationship"-section, detailing the interactions the character has had with various other characters. Character pages for Actives should have an "Engagements"-section too, summing up their imprints and mission (if we decide to keep that a little bit unhandy table around... a template for that would be great). --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :I see your "Character Development," "Relationships," and "Engagements" and raise you a "Background" for any pre-show timeline events (ex, Boyd's career as a cop). Maybe that'd be a "Character Development" subheading, maybe a heading on its own? Also, within "Character Development," some articles seem relatively fluid and some have an episode-by-episode analysis. I'm thinking episode subheadings in "Character Development" should be discouraged, or a character article has suddenly become a laundry list of episode events.--Phantomrhiannon 20:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :::Yep, Background, if available, should have an (sub)section. Though I am not sure how to organize them. How about: :::*General introduction :::*Character Development :::**Background :::**Relationships :::*Engagements :::--— Wiesengrund (talk) 09:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC) ::::I think something like "Personality" should be added under "Character Development" so that all the, well, personality description doesn't go into the section un-sorted. --Phantomrhiannon 16:19, 15 March 2009 (UTC) ::::: It might be good to have this on the Dolls' pages, but perhaps as Inactive-State Personality Quirks, or something similar but better phrased. We could list developing facets of individuality in their Doll states - Echo's 'shoulder to the grindstone' moment, her friendship with Sierra, and Victor's... Reactions to Sierra. If they list any lead-up signs for Alpha's - Composite event is what they call it, right? - he could have those listed too. Sort of a chronology of their personalities emerging. Ponk 16:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC) ::::::I'm going to throw this up as another discussion topic below. --Phantomrhiannon 23:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC) :::::The "Personality"-section... do you imagine it as description of the current state the character is in? Because then I would organize the article differently: :::::*General introduction :::::*Personality (short summary of the current situation and general noticeable personality traits) :::::*Character Development :::::**Background (basically anything from flashbacks... Boyd's arrival at the Dollhouse, Caroline, Alpha's incident, etc.) :::::**''Dollhouse'' (anything that happened on the show, in present time; written form, grounded by episodes) :::::*Relationships :::::*Engagements :::::Now, the question is, do we put the Doll-state quirks into the Dollhouse-subsection as part of their "normal" character development or do we create an own subsection for that? I tend to think it should be doable to include it in the normal progression of the character through the show. Basically, if we mix it, it will end up as paragraphs describing the event from one episode (including both the engagements, and the Inactive-state stuff). I would prefer it that way, since one of the points of the show is to juxtapose these two layers, so it would make sense to include it here as well. :::::I'm also not sure, if "Relationships" should be a section, or a subsection of "Character Development". I tend to see it it as a section, since it is describing a general current state (very much like "Personality", while "Character Development" is should be a very chronological description, showing how everything led up to the relationships that are now observable. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 10:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC) :::::I think what I'm seeing as "Personality" is ... who is this person? what is he/she like? with the added bonus: what's going on in his/her life? Basically, I think what I'm going for is what we're looking for in a "Dollhouse" subsection of "Character Development." Otherwise you'd be pretty much repeating the general description and the "Dollhouse" subsection in "Personality." So I see the most recently proposed format.--Phantomrhiannon 15:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC) Development v. Characterization: OPEN "Character Development" v. "Characterization" - I like consistency, I think we should pick one and stick with it. Personally, I prefer "Character Development."--Phantomrhiannon 20:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :Totally agreed, I'm for "Character Development". --— Wiesengrund (talk) 09:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Doll-State Quirks: OPEN Ponk suggested above that Doll character pages could have a "list of developing facets of individuality." Yes/no? What do we name it? Should this be a list (standard format chart) or paragraph description? --Phantomrhiannon 23:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC) :I'd go with yes, we should include these, but a formal list would limit how we describe the Dolls' emerging personalities. No idea what to call it if we're looking for anything more specific here than "personality." --Phantomrhiannon 23:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC) :: I'd say in written form as opposed to dot points, but have them grouped by episode: In the episode Episode Link, Echo was on an engagement where blah blah stuff happened. After her wipe she was shown blah blah stuff happened again. Something like that? Ponk 07:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC) :::Written form, grounded by episode sounds good to me. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 10:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC) :If we're questioning above if this belongs under "Dollhouse" of "Character Development," then this is really something that's going to get blended into just that..."Dollhouse" of "Character Development," AND if we're saying that this should be in written form grounded by episodes...what I think we're basically saying is "remember to include any doll-state quirks in 'Dollhouse.'" I think that's how we should be doing it...but it completely undermines the original point of specifically keeping track of the quirks. So if that's what we want to do, I'd say to "remember to include it in 'Dollhouse'" but also keep a very simple chart that serves the point.--Phantomrhiannon 15:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC) Character-Is-An-Active Reveals: OPEN I'm suggesting that there should be separate pages for Lubov and Mellie that don't mention that they're Actives except in the spoiler section. Nexuapex (talk) 15:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC) :The spoiler policy is being discussed over here: Dollhouse Wiki talk:Community Portal if you'd like to join in. The character-is-an-active reveal is currently under a spoiler warning in Mellie, but yeah, the whole Victor/Lubov title in the drop-down menu is a bit of a giveaway. --Phantomrhiannon 23:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC) Episodes: OPEN I'd say the way they're organized right now is okay. To summarize it: *General Description (Name, episode number, writer, director airdate) **(Infobox on the right side) *1 Production info (if available) *2 Synopsis (starting out with the press release description for unaired episodes and expanding it on already aired episodes) *3 Reception (divided in Cast & Crew, Critics and Ratings) *4 Cast (divides in Main Cast, Recurring and guest stars) *5 Quotes *6 Music *7 Promotional Photos (the gallery taken from the Photos page) *8 Notes & References *9 External links (at least links to the official Wiki, imdb and tv.com) --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::This is probably the one of the longest-standing conventions around on this wiki. Shall we go ahead and make this one official? --Phantomrhiannon 16:21, 15 March 2009 (UTC) Actors: OPEN I think Actors should have at least two sections: Previous work and Dollhouse. I tried to summarize each actor's previous work form a Dollhouse-point of view (mentioning for instance if they have worked with other people from the Dollhouse crew earlier in their career). The Dollhouse-section should contain quotes and general information about how, when and why the role was casted that way, and (if available) a Reception-subsection detailing critical mentions of said actor's work on Dollhouse. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :: I'd suggest a Dollhouse section, a "things they've done with Dollhouse people" section - maybe rolled in as a final paragraph of the Dollhouse section - and a short filmography/list of prior roles. Dollhouse area would be good for tidbits like how Claire Saunders was initially intended to be older but was rewritten especially for Amy Acker. Ponk 03:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC) ::: I think we're talking about the same thing, Ponk. I suggest two main sections for each cast/crew-member: :::*Previous Work :::*''Dollhouse'' :::I suggest the "Previous Work" section to be a short description of the career of the cast/crew-member, but already written from a Dollhouse-point of view, mentioning collaborations with Dollhouse-cast/crew-members. I've tried to implement that approach in articles like Tim Minear and Jane Espenson. The Dollhouse-section contains a general description of how the person got into the show, what they did on the show, and interesting tidbits like that Clair Saunders-info. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 10:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC) Capitalization: OPEN In headings: OPEN Do we capitalize the first word in headings only, or do we treat headings like titles? --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :I think it started out as "first word only", but I think I'm starting to like the "like titles"-style better. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 09:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Show vocabulary: OPEN Do we capitalize "doll," "active," "engagement," and/or "imprint" or not?--Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *I don't have a preference, but whatever we do for "doll," we should do for "active." --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::"Doll" and "Active" capitalized is okay, as is "Dollhouse". However, "engagement", "imprint" and "wipe" should probably stay uncapitalized. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :::Agreed. --Phantomrhiannon 23:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC) American English vs. British English vs. Indian English, etc.: OPEN Which do we use? --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) *Just to make everything all official-like so nobody gets into an editing war over ." vs. ". or o vs. ou, I'd like come out and say "American show, American English." --Phantomrhiannon 04:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::Agreed. --— Wiesengrund (talk) 12:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC) ::: I'm not American myself but yeah, the logic holds. Ponk 03:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC) This one's fairly cut and dry. All agreed? --Phantomrhiannon 22:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC) Addressing characters in articles: OPEN Do we want to make a policy about how to address them consistently throughout the Wiki? The main question is: Topher, Topber Brink, or Brink? Since the show is not really delving into very personal relationships right now, I think it would be okay, if the first mentioning of a character in an article should be his/her full name ("Laurence Dominic") and repeated mentions should then be done by last name ("Dominic"). That's fine for consistency, but the show is obviously not helping us here: While "Mr. Dominic" and "Mr. Langton" is heard quite often (and probably is also the main name people will associate with these characters), "Brink" almost never gets a mention. Topher is called Topher on the show, and I don't know how awkward it would be to call him Brink throughout the Wiki. Adelle DeWitt is also funny, since she is very friendly and on first-name basis with clients, while the staff of the Dollhouse obviously calls her "Ms. DeWitt". Thank god the Actives only have one name... ;) What's the opinion on this? Shall we try to implement a policy here? --— Wiesengrund (talk) 11:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC) I'm all about consistency. The problem here, though, is that which name you choose to use actually both characterizes the person you're talking about AND influences the tone of the article. It's awkward to refer to Topher as Brink, but it would be awkward and informal to refer to Dominic as Laurence. I trip over Topher and Adelle DeWitt every time I edit articles that mention them. I think the best way to make a consistent policy without being awkward is to say "first use in an article = first last, subsequent use = whatever is most commonly used on the show." That way, Topher can be Topher and Dominic can be Dominic and the rule is still consistent. The problem would then lie with Adelle DeWitt, since she's about 50/50. I'd say, as upper management, she'd be DeWitt. --Phantomrhiannon 00:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)